Skeptics and Seekers

Skeptics and Seekers
A Skeptic and a Seeker in conversation about matters of god, religion, morality, and other things that matter.

Surviving Corona with David Russell: Lessons Learned from Pandemics Past
May 30 • 64 min
The two Davids went after it on what we can learn from history.
Comment Section
May 29 • 96 min
Bryan and David highlight some of their favorite comments from the last few weeks.
Surviving Corona with Natalie Colins
May 22 • 71 min
Natalie is one of my favorite human beings. Find out why. Enjoy.
A Conversation with Chase
May 17 • 112 min
This was a really fun conversation. You will not want to miss it.
Surviving Corona: Matt, Sarah, and David discuss the skeptics views in the book
May 16 • 123 min
We did all the skeptics together in one go. We will be doing interviews with the Christian authors one at a time. Enjoy.
After Show
May 12 • 97 min
Bryan, Dale, and David dig in a little deeper on the argument from Design and ID.
Argument from Design: Scientifically Speaking, with David Pallmann
May 9 • 96 min
David P wanted to have a purely scientific conversation and forgo theology. David J wanted to have a theological conversation and forgo the science. Something had to give.
Hell Round 2 After Show
May 5 • 86 min
Dale, Darren, Bryan, and David
Round 2 Discussion on Hell: Skeptics’ View
May 1 • 152 min
It took 6 skeptics to counter three Christians on hell.
Three Christians Discuss Hell: Dale Glover, Chris Date, and David Russell
Apr 25 • 132 min
Join the conversation at
Resurrection After Show with Bryan and David
Apr 14 • 80 min
Bryan and David deconstruct David’s conversation with Jonathan McLatchie on Unbelievable.
Shroud Wars Reboot Aftershow with David and Darren
Apr 13 • 42 min
Shroud Wars REBOOT with Teddi and Hugh
Apr 10 • 124 min
This one is just for you shroudies. Happy Easter.
Thomas Oord: In Cooperation with God
Apr 4 • 101 min
What a fantastic conversation. I hope you love it as much as I did.
Mar 28 • 121 min
Time to geek out.
David Russell: Testing God
Mar 20 • 126 min
X-tians: Aftershow with Bryan
Mar 17 • 72 min
Bryan sifts through his copious notes and shares some of his thoughts on the subject.
X-tians Part Two: How to keep the ones you have, and reclaim the ones you lost
Mar 13 • 123 min
The band gets back together to do one of the toughest jobs an atheist can do: We came up with practical ideas for how the church can keep more of its members from leaving. It was a rather emotional journey. Enjoy!
X-tians: What Christians Who Stay Need to Know About the Christians Who Don’t
Mar 12 • 121 min
Four former Christians talk about why they left. They also speculate on why so many others are leaving. Christians will want to pay close attention to this one. Look for part 2 coming soon…
A conversation with David Kemball Cook: The journey, the bible, and the hard problem of consciousness
Mar 6 • 110 min
Forget the topics. This was just a great conversation. Enjoy.
Deal Breakers
Feb 27 • 138 min
Among other things, Robert and David discuss single-issue dealbreakers that make Christianity untenable. Being a Christian, Robert naturally disagrees. He also goes into detail about his epistemology underpinning his beliefs. Enjoy.
Pascal: Aftershow
Feb 23 • 55 min
Robert and David pick at the bones of the discussion.
Pascal: All In
Feb 23 • 128 min
After this show, are you ready to wager? Bryan, Teddi, Robert, and David roll the dice.
Atheist Heaven
Feb 14 • 128 min
The first half of the show explains why many atheists don’t care for the Christian heaven. But can we do better? Let’s find out:
Robert Stanley Director’s Cut
Feb 7 • 106 min
A few thoughts that didn’t make it into the podcast. Enjoy.
Robert Stanley and Dale on the Bible: Unclear, at Best
Feb 5 • 106 min
Given the best gloss one can put on the bible, it comes out unclear, at best. Dale disagrees, I think. Perhaps you will hear it differently.
An Honest Search for God
Jan 31 • 130 min
Did David go too far in his honest search for god? Let’s find out:
Granting God
Jan 24 • 118 min
What happens when three skeptics try to grant that the Christian god is real? Probably not what you think. Check it out.
Titus: Spreading the Good News
Jan 17 • 139 min
What does our new Christian host sound like? I don’t know. But it might sound a lot like Titus. We’ll see.
Darren: Prove It!
Jan 11 • 125 min
Darren and David have a surprisingly thoughtful and thought provoking discussion about evidence, reason, and faith.
Part 2 of 2 Teddi v. Sarah
Jan 2 • 74 min
This is the second part of a discussion already in progress. Please go back and listen to part 1 if you have not already.
Teddi v. Sarah Part 1 of 2
Jan 2 • 109 min
Teddi presents a shroud-first Christianity. And Sarah is not having any of it.
The Conversation
Dec 28, 2019 • 121 min
Everyone join in welcoming Bryan to the podcast. He went from commenter to microphone. And you can too. All are welcome to the conversation.
Part 2 of 2 The Big Miracle Show
Dec 21, 2019 • 131 min
This is the second part of the discussion already in progress from part 1.
Part 1 of 2 The Big Miracle Show
Dec 21, 2019 • 129 min
Special guests include Teddi, Sarah, Andrew, and Matthew.
Supplemental- Identifying and Evaluating Miracles of God- Dale’s Intro Speech
Dec 18, 2019 • 91 min
This Sat Dec 21st will be the ultimate show down on Miracles of God. That said, that is David’s show and so I will mostly be a reactive puppet to his plans for the show and won’t have time to give my full case. Thus, I wanted to provide my opening case in…
Ex Nihilo, Ex Materia
Dec 14, 2019 • 89 min
This one turned out to be more interesting than David thought it would. :)
Moral Epistemology- The Issue Christians Don’t Want to Talk About
Dec 7, 2019 • 176 min
Dale had to cut out early. So Andrew and I chatted for an hour and a half after the show. Don’t miss it.
Plausibility of Miracles
Nov 30, 2019 • 158 min
Dale believes that Skeptics are wrong for dismissing the possibility of miracles out of hand. Dale has to make that case against three skeptics on the show. Who said life was fair?
A Well-lived Life Without God
Nov 23, 2019 • 160 min
Is it possible to live a good life without god? Let’s find out.
Part 2 of 2 Trinity Coherence
Nov 17, 2019 • 139 min
There is nothing left to say about the trinity.
Part 1 of 2 Trinity Coherence
Nov 17, 2019 • 112 min
Everything you wanted to know about the trinity and were too afraid to ask.
Reasonable Disbelief
Nov 7, 2019 • 123 min
Both David and Dale make separate arguments about the reasonableness of disbelief. Who had the most compelling argument? You decide.
Nov 3, 2019 • 150 min
Would the trinity have made sense to our Old Testament brethren?
Tony Costa
Oct 25, 2019 • 103 min
A great-making episode. :)
Prayer: Why Applying Critical Analysis to Magical Thinking Is a Waste of Time
Oct 20, 2019 • 194 min
There are reasons prayer claims almost never convince skeptics.. Enjoy.
S2 Randal Rauser
Oct 11, 2019 • 85 min
Randal and I both agree that the universe is really old. However, that presents a real theological problem from which Christianity cannot recover. That is what we don’t agree on.
S2E2 Dr. Michael Brown: Man with a Plan
Oct 6, 2019 • 70 min
Doc Brown talks Jewish redemption, human sexuality, and spiritual workings of the miraculous. This couldn’t possibly end well.
S2E1 Apologetics Review
Sep 28, 2019 • 155 min
Dale and David have to scramble as their scheduled guest had a last-minute cancelation, leaving them to wing it.
Christian Hate Speech or Tough Love?
Sep 22, 2019 • 112 min
Dale and David discuss whether sharing Christian doctrine and truth with non-believers is “Hate Speech” or simply “Tough Love”.
Season 2 Premiere- Is There a “Real” Christianity?
Sep 14, 2019 • 146 min
Kicking things off for Season 2 of S&S, David (the skeptic) makes the claim that there is no such thing as a real “Orthodox Christianity”.
S2 Supplemental- Jesus Mythicism Debated- Dale vs. Mythicist Kevin Francis on R2R
Aug 18, 2019 • 70 min
Robert Stanley of the Right to Reason Podcast hosts both Dale (Christian/Jesus Historicist)and Kevin Francis (atheist/Jesus Mythicist from the Left at the Valley Podcast) to discuss the subject of Jesus Mythicism- did Jesus really exist or not? Listen and…
S2 Supplemental- Dale’s University Professor Paul Bali Guest Stars on 4A
Aug 12, 2019 • 134 min
Dale and his philosophy professor Paul Bali guest star on the Ask an Atheist Anything Podcast (4A) with Andrew and Matt to discuss freedom of expression, philosophy, science and religion. Its a must listen folks!
Summer 2019 Special on Faith
Aug 11, 2019 • 133 min
Here is a bonus episode during our summer hiatus- David and Dale discuss what it means to have “faith” in a Christian context.
S2 Supplemental: Jesus Mythicism Refuted (Part 1)- Evaluating Non-Christian Ancient Historian Sources
Aug 2, 2019 • 220 min
In Part 1 of this series on Jesus Mythicism, I evaluate the evidence from 4-5 ancient historians; Thallus & Phlegon, Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius and Flavius Josephus to see if they can provide positive proof that an historical Jesus probably did exist.…
Episode 48: A discussion on Healing
Jul 1, 2019 • 83 min
This is just a little something to hold you over.
Post Season 1 Supplemental: Right to Reason Podcast- Robert Stanley and Dale Discuss the Morality of the Abraham Test & the Flood
Jun 8, 2019 • 77 min
Dale Glover (Christian) guest stars on Robert Stanley’s atheist show, the Right to Reason Podcast. We discuss the moral foundation and justification for God ordering Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son and God’s Flooding the Earth. There were some…
Supplemental- Interview Assessing the Shroud’s Bloodstains with Shroud Agnostic Dr. Kelly Kearse
Jun 7, 2019 • 91 min
Scientist, immunologist and fellow Christian Dr. Kelly Kearse, joins the show to discuss the nature of the Shroud’s bloodstains in relation to its authenticity and possible image-formation mechanisms (supernatural vs. natural). As a Shroud agnostic, I…
Episode 47: Finale
May 19, 2019 • 253 min
David and Dale slip their leashes and go on and on and on and…. This is going to take a while. Enjoy.
Episode 46: Helen Paynter
May 11, 2019 • 137 min
We debate biblical violence. Enough said.
Episode 45: Craig Keener
May 5, 2019 • 86 min
Dr. Keener talks about the historicity of the book of Acts.
Supplemental- Shroud Wars Round 4- Joe Marino vs. Hugh Farey
Apr 27, 2019 • 112 min
Listen to the 4th installment of the Shroud Wars debates series with Hugh Farey (Shroud skeptic) vs. Joe Marino (Pro-Shroud)- topics include the invisible reweave theory against the 1988 C-14, the Shroud as an artistic object and discussion on the…
Anthony Magnabosco: Taking it to the streets
Apr 27, 2019 • 119 min
We welcome Anthony Magnabosco who provides a demonstration of street epistemology.
Episode 43: Risen Indeed?
Apr 20, 2019 • 157 min
Do Christians really care about resurrection as much as they do?
Supplemental- Shroud Wars Round 3- Bob Rucker vs. Hugh Farey
Apr 20, 2019 • 151 min
In the third installment of our Shroud Wars debate series, two Shroud experts, Bob Rucker (Pro-Shroud) and Hugh Farey (Shroud Skeptic) go head to head to battle it out on the 1988 C-14 dating and how the images may or may not have been formed artistically.
Episode 42: Luis Dizon:
Apr 13, 2019 • 113 min
Special guest Luis Dizon went from being one of the leading Protestant preachers to a member of the Catholic church. Find out what else is interesting about him.
Supplemental- Dale on Ask an Atheist Anything- When does the Atheist Bear the Burden of Proof
Apr 8, 2019 • 135 min
Dale is a guest on the “Ask an Atheist Anything” Podcast with hosts Andrew and Matt to probe when does the Atheist bear the burden of proof; topics range from discussing Bayes Theorem to the shifting of the burden of proof and the nature of defeaters…
Episode 41: Doctrine of God Series- The Coherence of Christian Theism- Part 2 (Christian View)
Apr 7, 2019 • 116 min
Dale does his best to make the traditional properties of god make sense.
Episode 40: Why I Stopped Caring About What the Bible Says, and Why You Should Too (Part 6)
Mar 30, 2019 • 100 min
Consider this a preview to our upcoming shows on biblical violence which upcoming guests.
Episode 39: Lydia McGrew
Mar 23, 2019 • 97 min
Lydia McGrew stops by to school us on why she thinks the gospels were historical accounts. Class is in session.
Episode 38: Natalie Collins
Mar 16, 2019 • 117 min
Does god speak directly to you? He speaks to this week’s guest.
Supplemental- Substance Dualism Series Part 4
Mar 15, 2019 • 76 min
This is the final part of my lecture series on Substance Dualism (i.e. the existence of the soul). Here we look at 4 skeptical arguments against the existence of the soul and evaluate 4 main physicalist theories of what the conscious subject entails.
Episode 37 Drew Sokol
Mar 8, 2019 • 98 min
Drew is on the fence. Can Dale and David tip him one way or the other?
Episode 36: David Smalley: 5 Topics
Mar 1, 2019 • 104 min
What happens when Dale meets David Smalley in a surprise debate? Find out.
Episode 35: Sean McDowell
Feb 22, 2019 • 68 min
Latest episode of Skeptics and Seekers
Supplemental- Substance Dualism Series Part 3
Feb 21, 2019 • 92 min
This is Part 3 of series on Substance Dualism- here we address the second issue of contention of the Mind-Body Problem- proving the existence of a non-physical conscious subject.
Episode 34: Why I Stopped Caring About What the Bible Says, and Why You Should too (Part 5)
Feb 16, 2019 • 146 min
Latest episode of Skeptics and Seekers
Episode 33: Why I Stopped Caring About What the Bible Says, and Why You Should too (Part 4)
Feb 8, 2019 • 39 min
This is really a continuation of Part 3, the best of what Jesus had to say.
Episode 32: Why I Stopped Caring About What the Bible Says, and Why You Should too (Part 3)
Feb 2, 2019 • 81 min
David is all alone at S&S headquarters. And he goes completely off the chain for over an hour. Some people were never meant to go solo.
Episode 31: Why I Stopped Caring About What the Bible Says, and Why You Should too (Part 2)
Jan 26, 2019 • 157 min
David makes his second case for why he stopped caring about the bible, and why you should too. He tries to make the case that no one can really understand it.
Episode 30: The Truth About Truth (Seeker’s View) C. J. Morgan
Jan 25, 2019 • 176 min
Welcome special guest C. J. Morgan
Supplemental- Substance Dualism Series Part 2
Jan 22, 2019 • 69 min
This is the second part of the series on substance dualism- here we assess the nature of mental properties and states (the first issue of contention of the Mind-Body Problem).
Episode 29: Gary Habermas
Jan 19, 2019 • 77 min
David and Dale are in conversation with Gary Habermas: the dean of doubt.
Supplemental- Substance Dualism Series Part 1
Jan 17, 2019 • 59 min
This is the first of 4 supplemental episodes on the nature and existence of the human soul (i.e. substance dualism); this will be an general introduction to the series and provide an explanation as to what the Christian position of substance dualism is…
Episode 28: Mike Licona
Jan 12, 2019 • 81 min
Latest episode of Skeptics and Seekers
Still Unbelievable: Gender
Jan 6, 2019 • 77 min
Sarah, Andrew, and David take Justin and his guests to task on the subject of gender roles.
Episode 27: Doctrine of God Series- The Coherence of Christian Theism (Part 1)
Jan 5, 2019 • 91 min
Dale tries to make a case for god based on his attributes being logically possible.
Episode 26: Why I don’t Care What the Bible Says, and Why You Shouldn’t Either
Dec 29, 2018 • 98 min
David makes a case for why the bible is not worth considering. Let’s see how he does.
Episode 25: Christmas Roundtable
Dec 23, 2018 • 80 min
Not exactly the most wonderful time of the year.
Episode 24: Messianic Prophecies- The Case for Jesus (Part 4)
Dec 15, 2018 • 77 min
Dale makes his final case on the basis of Daniel 9. David obliterates it in 15 minutes as promised. Or does he? Enjoy.
Episode 23 Shroud Wars 2- Dale Vs. Alan Debate Round #2
Dec 9, 2018 • 145 min
Latest episode of Skeptics and Seekers
Episode 22: Messianic Prophecy Part 3
Dec 2, 2018 • 74 min
Isaiah 53
Episode 21 Messianic Prophecies- The Case for Jesus (Part 2)
Nov 24, 2018 • 90 min
Latest episode of Skeptics and Seekers
Episode 20: Shroud Wars with Dale and Alan Part 2 of Round 1
Nov 20, 2018 • 110 min
Conversation continues…
Nov 17, 2018 • 78 min
Well folks, its finally here! Round 1 of the big showdown between Dale (Pro-Shroud) and his nemesis Alan (the Shroud skeptic). Quite obviously, Alan and I are not actually nemeses, we both have strong views on the evidence from the Shroud of Turin and we…
Supplemental 13: Barrie Schwortz
Nov 10, 2018 • 101 min
Barrie Schwortz if the foremost expert on the shroud. And we have him for an interview. Dale and Andrew pepper him with audience questions. Barrie is gracious and informative. David even pops in for a question of his own. No matter what you think about…
Episode 18: Messianic Prophecies- The Case for Jesus Christ
Nov 10, 2018 • 99 min
Dale attempts to make a non-standard case for the prophetic claims of the birth of Jesus. This is just Part 1. So it will take a couple of weeks to develop.
Supplemental 13- Part 10 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Nov 10, 2018 • 42 min
Latest episode of Skeptics and Seekers
Supplemental 12- Part 9 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Nov 8, 2018 • 64 min
In Parts 9 & 10 of our Shroud series, we shall be assessing the second major “Ordinary Artistic” mechanism- the Powder-Rubbing and/or Dusting technique.
Roundtable #3: Grill a Christian
Nov 4, 2018 • 127 min
In this episode, we turn the tables and ask Dale the Questions, along with questions from the audience.
Episode 17: Spiritual Warfare
Nov 3, 2018 • 88 min
David makes the case that there are key things about the spiritual war the Christian can never prove in a way that convinces a rational non-believer.
Episode 30
Oct 27, 2018 • 73 min
Latest episode of Skeptics and Seekers
Episode 15: Drunk with Blood
Oct 21, 2018 • 58 min
David makes the case that Christianity is not just a cult, but occult.
Supplemental 11- Part 8 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Oct 20, 2018 • 76 min
In Part 8, we finish our analysis of the traditional “Painting Hypothesis” as the image-forming mechanism of the Shroud of Turin (as advocated by Dr. Walter McCrone). I want you up front, this episode was not my favorite to do as it can get very technical…
Episode 14: Effective Communication: A Christian Quagmire
Oct 14, 2018 • 76 min
Dale expresses real concern about how he and other Christians come across to nonbelievers. David explains how nonbelievers tend to hear Christians.
Episode 13: They’ll Know We Are Christians
Oct 6, 2018 • 72 min
David argues that there is no way for an outsider to identify a Christian. Find out if Dale can prove him wrong.
Supplemental 10- Part 7 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Oct 5, 2018 • 65 min
In Part 7 we will take a look at the very first Shroud skeptical image-forming mechanism; the “Painting Hypothesis” as advocated for by Dr. Walter McCrone.
Supplemental 9: Tara
Oct 3, 2018 • 53 min
Who is Tara and what does she believe? You’re about to find out.
Episode 12: Double Warrant
Sep 29, 2018 • 54 min
Dale tries to argue that a prophecy of a miraculous event should be counted as double warrant for the G-belief event. Find out what that means, and if he is successful.
Episode 11: Implications of the Atrocious Passages
Sep 22, 2018 • 59 min
David calls Dale a moral monster. Dale calls David a moral monster. Listen to discover why.
Supplemental 8- Part 6 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Sep 21, 2018 • 71 min
In Part 6 we will spend the first half of the show to lay out and describe what it means for an event (i.e. the formation of the Shroud’s images and their associated Minimal Relevant Features or MRF’s) to be “Extraordinary” (aka. fulfill Criterion B.) as…
Episode 10: The Historicity of the Jericho Conquest:
Sep 16, 2018 • 64 min
Did god cause the walls of Jericho to fall? Dale tries to make the case.
Supplemental 7- Part 5 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Sep 14, 2018 • 86 min
In Part 5 of our Shroud study, we will finish off discussion of the final two “Minimal Relevant Features” (MRF’s) which will be used in evaluating the various image-forming mechanisms in Criterion B (upcoming Podcasts). This episode, we look at some of…
Supplemental 6: Part 4 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Sep 10, 2018 • 63 min
Interestinger and interestinger…
Episode 9: Mythicism
Sep 8, 2018 • 63 min
David makes a case for Jesus Mythicism. But it is not necessarily the case you are expecting. Does he have a point? Let’s find out.
Roundtable #2 with David, Dale, Matthew, and Andrew
Sep 4, 2018 • 116 min
Dale shifts his focus from the book to the show, asking questions that came up in the appearance un Unbelievable. We also take questions from the audience. This one is going to go long, really long.
Supplemental #5: Feedback on African-American Agnosticism
Sep 3, 2018 • 46 min
Lisa kicks us off with thoughts about African-American agnosticism. I wasn’t really trying to spend 30 minutes talking about it. It just happened. We got this amazing video from listener Even Davids: Even points out the incongruity of evolution and…
Episode 8: The Resurrection Revisited: The Issue of “Sufficient Attachment”
Sep 1, 2018 • 91 min
This one gets a little heated as Dale and David wrestle over… Well, you’ll see.
Supplemental 4: Part 3 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Sep 1, 2018 • 63 min
Find out if Dale can date the Shroud all the way back to the time of Jesus
Supplemental #3: Feedback on Original Sin
Aug 30, 2018 • 58 min
This week, David dives into the mail bag. He finds an interesting set of missives from Joyce and Dale as they converse about the remaking of the doctrine of original sin. There is a surprise or two in there. You are going to want to listen to this one.…
Part 2 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Aug 28, 2018 • 57 min
Dale continues the series with more dating evidence. Be sure to check out part 1 first.
Supplemental 1: Part 1 Evidence for Christianity Based on the Shroud of Turin
Aug 28, 2018 • 54 min
Dale explains the Shroud of Turin, and why it is an important part of his belief. This is part one. Part two has either already been posted, or is soon to follow. See the blog for extensive notes at
Episode 8: Round Table with Skeptics and Seekers and Ask an Atheist Anything
Aug 27, 2018 • 85 min
This kicks off a week of bonus material as a way of saying thank you to the listeners. Andrew, Matthew, David, and Dale get together to talk about David and Andrew’s appearance on Unbelievable. Matthew is one of the authors of the response book, “Still…
Episode 7: Progressive Revelation with Special Guest, Randal Rauser
Aug 25, 2018 • 79 min
This week, Randal and I were a part of a panel discussing two books, one of which was coauthored by yours truly.…
Episode 6: Failure of the Fall
Aug 19, 2018 • 65 min
David makes a case that the Fall fails as a doctrine, bringing with it other sacred doctrines like original sin and redemption. Under any form of theistic evolution, there is no room for the Fall. Dale calls for Christian participation on this one.
Episode 5: The Issue of Subsumability
Aug 12, 2018 • 63 min
Dale thinks the resurrection can prove Christianity, and only Christianity. Dale also thinks Christianity can borrow from Judaism in ways that other religions can’t borrow from Christianity. Does he make his case?
Episode 4: Evil God Dilemma
Aug 4, 2018 • 71 min
What should the Christian advise the skeptic to do if the skeptic comes to a conclusion that god is real, but evil? Let’s find out.
Episode 3 (part 2)
Jul 28, 2018 • 62 min
Dale rehabilitates his argument from last time (but not really). David is gracious (but not really). Even so, they both shook hands and agreed to disagree (but not really).
Episode 2 (part 1)
Jul 28, 2018 • 50 min
No more Mr. nice guys. Dave and Dale argue for the best of their side and the worst of the other’s. The discussion was so good, it couldn’t be contained in one episode. So when you are done with this one, you can jump right into part 2. Enjoy.
Episode 1
Jul 17, 2018 • 40 min
Both the skeptic and the seeker reveal the weakness in their own position, and the strengths in the other’s.