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Contemplify

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Kindling the Examined Life
Awake in Mindful Silence | Phileena Heuertz
Nov 20 • 48 min
Phileena is a founding partner alongside her husband Chris of Gravity: A Center for Contemplative Activism. A spiritual director, retreat leader, writer, yoga teacher and exactly the type of person you want to find yourself in conversation with. Head over…
Daring A Journey of Texture | Theodore Richards
Oct 9 • 57 min
Theodore Richards latest work’s A Letter to My Daughters: Remembering the Lost Dimension and the Texture of Life. Theodore Richards is a philosopher, poet and novelist. He has won numerous awards for his writing, most recently winning the Nautilus Book…
Wild Mystic Folk for Lovers, Gamblers, and Rovers Alike | Luke Redfield
Sep 18 • 61 min
Luke Redfield is an American folk singer who hails from my home state of Minnesota and now calls Austin, Texas home. He has crossed the country in true troubadour fashion, honing his craft along the way. As his website perfectly states it, Luke integrates…
Wendell Berry & Gary Snyder are Distant Neighbors | Chad Wriglesworth
Sep 10 • 57 min
Chad Wriglesworth is a professor (at St. Jerome’s University), literary critic, book editor and writer. Chad compiled and edited the letters for Distant Neighbors: The Selected Letters of Wendell Berry and Gary Snyder. This book is riveting and I begged…
Contemplative Happy Hour | Tessa Bielecki
Aug 20 • 62 min
Tessa Bielecki has written a number of books, I recommend them all, and most heartily Holy Daring: The Earthy Mysticism of St. Teresa, the Wild Woman of Avila. Tessa dipped into a contemplative way of being early in her life and has followed that thread…
Should a Hermit Like Bob Dylan?
Jul 16 • 58 min
Famed contemplative hermit Thomas Merton wrote in his journal in the mid 1960s, ‘Should a hermit like Bob Dylan? He means at least as much to me as some of the new liturgy, perhaps in some ways more. I want to know the guy. I want him to come here, and I…
Del Barber is an Easy Keeper
Jun 26 • 61 min
In our conversation today, Del Barber and I cover the music and books that shape him, why it’s even more important to live out a dream once you are a parent, how when we were first friends I gave him a test to see if he would understood the wise words of…
Rediscovering the Prayer Wheel with David Van Biema
Jun 10 • 57 min
Imagine a wheel, a wheel with nesting concentric circles within it. Each circle holding the sacred text and ancient contemplative practice of a devoted community of monks. This sounds a lot like something pulled from Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, but…
Lauds (of Coffee)
May 30 • 15 min
Today’s episode is going to be the first of a series I’ll be doing on the reimagining of the Divine Office into my own personal reflective interpretations as a contemplative in the world. The intention is to mark each of the Hours but in a form very…
055: Shaped by the Dance Between Landscape & Consciousness with Gail Straub (Author of The Ashokan Way)
May 15 • 65 min
Gail Straub is the author of The Ashokan Way: Landscape’s Path into Consciousness. In the book and in our conversation Gail shares her wisdom on the dance of landscape and consciousness, her friendship with poet-philosopher (and one of my personal heroes)…
054: Contemplate Your Death Five Times a Day with Hansa Bergwall (Co-Founder of WeCroak)
Apr 24 • 49 min
‘Let me respectfully remind you: Life and Death are of supreme importance. Time swiftly passes by and opportunity is lost. On this night, the days of our life are decreased by one. Each of us should strive to awaken. Awaken! Take heed! Do not squander…
053: Heartfulness in the Space Between Things with Stephen Murphy-Shigematsu (author of From Mindfulness to Heartfulness)
Apr 9 • 58 min
Stephen Murphy-Shigematsu (スティーヴン・マーフィ重松) is a subtle and winsome teacher. He expands the meaning of mindfulness into the embodiment of heartfulness, and structures his latest book, From Mindfulness to Heartfulness: Transforming Self and Society with…
052: How Death Prepares You For Life: Buddhist Teacher Frank Ostaseski on The Five Invitations
Mar 27 • 71 min
Frank Ostaseski knows death. Not in a metaphorical or figurative way, but through concrete presence. Frank has held hands, laughed with, cried with and learned from those who were welcomed in the doors of the Zen Hospice Project during their final days on…
051: Montaigne in a Deer Stand: A Roughneck Contemplative on Philosophy, Bon Iver, and Marriage with Michael Perry (Author of Montaigne in Barn Boots)
Mar 6 • 61 min
Michael Perry is a roughneck contemplative. A term that I am hoping he will half smirk at in self-recognition from his deer stand. We got together to talk about his latest book, Montaigne in Barn Boots: An Amateur Ambles Through Philosophy, a book…
050: The Reverence Chocolate Evokes with Shawn Askinosie (Author of Meaningful Work: A Quest to Do Great Business, Find Your Calling, and Feed Your Soul)
Feb 20 • 55 min
Shawn Askinosie is a remarkable human being. Not because Oprah Magazine named him “One of 15 Guys Who Are Saving the World” or because Forbes named his small batch, award winning chocolate factory, Askinosie Chocolate ‘One of the 25 Best Small Companies…
049: The Sunday Letters: A Practice in Contemplative Thinking with Jana Marie
Feb 12 • 46 min
Jana Marie is the curator and writer of The Sunday Letters
048: Transforming Cinemas into Meditation Halls with Director Max Pugh on Walk With Me: A Journey Into Mindfulness Featuring Thich Nhat Hahn
Feb 2 • 55 min
Max Pugh is the Director and Producer of the film Walk With Me: A Journey Into Mindfulness Featuring Thich Nhat Hahn.
(MiniSeries, Episode 5) Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality with Ali Kirkpatrick
Jan 23 • 53 min
This is episode 5 of Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality.
(MiniSeries, Episode 4) Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality with Ali Kirkpatrick
Jan 22 • 44 min
This is episode 4 of Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality.
(MiniSeries, Episode 3) Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality with Ali Kirkpatrick
Jan 21 • 41 min
This is episode 3 of Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality.
(MiniSeries, Episode 2) Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality with Ali Kirkpatrick
Jan 20 • 40 min
Episode 2, ‘Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality’ with Ali Kirkpatrick
(MiniSeries, Episode 1) Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality with Ali Kirkpatrick
Jan 19 • 34 min
Episode 1, ‘Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality’ with Ali Kirkpatrick
(MiniSeries, Introduction) Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality with Ali Kirkpatrick
Jan 18 • 60 min
Introduction episode of ‘Practice Without Preaching: Creating a Family Spirituality’ with Ali Kirkpatrick
047: Mystic Soul Project and the Essence of Deep Spirituality with Teresa Pasquale Mateus
Dec 21, 2017 • 56 min
My guest today is Teresa Pasquale Mateus, a trauma specialist, contemplative practice teacher, author and co-founder of Mystic Soul Project.
046: Ordinary Mystic & Contemplative Shoveler (Mark Longhurst Interviews Host Paul Swanson)
Dec 19, 2017 • 67 min
My pal Mark Longhurst runs the top-notch website OrdinaryMystic.net reached out to me some time ago inquiring if I’d ever consider being interviewed on Contemplify so my fellow contemplatives could get a better sense of who I am. My guest today…is me and…
045: A Handbook to Midlife: Philosophical Tools, Wisdom & Avoiding the Midlife Crisis with Kieran Setiya (author of Midlife: A Philosophical Guide)
Dec 5, 2017 • 53 min
Have you ever asked yourself, what would my life have been like if I’d gone down another career path? Or wished you could release some past grudge that sits on your shoulder like a squaking parrot? The Contemplify conversation today revolves around…
044: Enlightenment Through Endarkment, or Bumbling Our Way to Possible Magic with Teddy Macker (Author of ‘This World’)
Nov 21, 2017 • 64 min
Teddy Macker is a guileless poet who incarnates the beauty and struggle of both the internal and external landscapes of this world we share. I would be lying if I didn’t say that one of my new life goals is buy Teddy a Lagunitas IPA.
043: Teddy Macker Reads “A Poem For My Daughter”
Nov 20, 2017 • 9 min
This mini-episode is just a taste of Teddy’s poetry. My full interview with Teddy Macker will be released tomorrow (and it includes more poems too). So for now, sit back, sip on something slowly and let Teddy’s words wash over you. Here is Teddy Macker…
042: Be Open to the Unexpected and Find Pure Presence with Tracy Cochran (Editor at Parabola Magazine)
Nov 7, 2017 • 55 min
Tracy Cochran is the editorial director of Parabola magazine, a magazine holds the sweet spot of being the meeting ground for all of the world’s great spiritual traditions, as they illuminate the central questions of human existence.
041: Cal Newport on Kindling an Examined Life Through Deep Work (author of Deep Work)
Oct 24, 2017 • 60 min
Cal Newport has written a book that will upturn your perception of how you ‘should’ be engaging in this era of constant connection. His book is called Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World. Be forewarned, our conversation and his book…
(Bonus Episode!) Dr. Barbara Holmes from 2016 in Celebration of the Revised Edition of Her Book, Joy Unspeakable
Oct 17, 2017 • 58 min
In this episode, Barbara Holmes shares about her own contemplative lineage, reflections on the contemplative aspects of the Black Lives Matter movement, the contemplative and social impact of Kendrick Lamar and Beyonce, and her sense of hope in the next…
040: Mindfulness in the Christian Tradition with Dr. Amy Oden (author of Right Here, Right Now: The Practice of Christian Mindfulness)
Oct 10, 2017 • 54 min
Dr. Amy Oden is a Professor of Early Church History and Spirituality at the Saint Paul School of Theology. In her latest book Right Here, Right Now: The Practice of Christian Mindfulness Amy draws upon the roots and connection points of mindfulness found…
039: Blueprint for an Authentic Life with Jeff Johnson (180 South, Bend to Baja)
Sep 17, 2017 • 54 min
Jeff Johnson has surfed distant shores, climbed mountains you’ve never heard of and travelled to corners of the world most people couldn’t place on a map. All of this is impressive, but what is most striking about Johnson is his authenticity. This…
038: The Enneagram as a Tool for Excavating Your Essence with Chris Heuertz (Author of The Sacred Enneagram)
Sep 5, 2017 • 53 min
Enneagram teacher Chris Heuertz will help you understand how to utilize the Enneagram to work with these questions with a deeper sense of self-awareness to find your way home to your True Self. He is the author of The Sacred Enneagram: Finding Your Unique…
037: Exploring the Silence and Laughter of Eternity with Carl McColman
Aug 28, 2017 • 62 min
Have you ever had a dream that shook you to your core? Or been given a book at the exact time you needed it? I know I have and if either of those ring true for you, you will raise your pint glass and cheer with what your ears are hearing from my guest…
036: Thomas Merton, Wisdom Sophia and a Dash of Pink Floyd with Christopher Pramuk
Aug 7, 2017 • 61 min
Interview with Chris Pramuk (theologian, author, scholar and lifelong musician) chair of Ignatian Thought and Imagination, and associate professor of theology at Regis University on his book At Play in Creation: Merton’s Awakening to the Divine Feminine.…
(Bonus Episode! Voicemail Series Edition) Tasha Wahl on Discovering a God of Love in ‘The Shack’
Jul 25, 2017 • 15 min
Another installment of the Contemplify Voicemail Series with artist and change-maker Tasha Wahl (founder and creator of The Butterfly Effect, www.butterflyeffectbethechange.com)
035: Ecstatic Experiences for the Spiritually Mediocre with Jules Evans (Philosopher and Author of The Art of Losing Control: A Philosopher’s Search for Ecstatic Experience)
Jul 19, 2017 • 56 min
My guest today is the multifaceted Jules Evans and trying to encapsulate Jules in a brief bio is near impossible, but let me start by sharing some his accolades: his first book, Philosophy for Life and Other Dangerous Situations was a Times Book of…
034: The Wendell Berry Way of Seeing: Filmmaker Laura Dunn on ‘Look & See: A Portrait of Wendell Berry’
Jun 26, 2017 • 57 min
Laura Dunn is the documentary filmmaker behind the film The Unforeseen, which took home the Independent Spirit Truer Than Fiction Award and was executive produced by Robert Redford and Terrence Malick. Laura’s latest film, Look…
033: The Buddhist Monk Who Adopted 85 Children: Filmmaker Andrew Hinton on His Documentary ‘Tashi and the Monk’
Jun 20, 2017 • 60 min
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Contemplify, the basecamp for budding contemplative whose pursuit is to kindle the examined life through conversations with creatives, scholars and practitioners. My guest today is Andrew Hinton, filmmaker…
(Bonus!) Titans of Inaction: The Graduation Address
Jun 6, 2017 • 5 min
Who is there that can make muddy water clear? But if allowed to remain still, it will gradually become clear of itself. Who is there that can secure a state of absolute repose? But let time go on, and the state of repose will gradually arise.’ - Lao…
032: Lodro Rinzler: When Work Becomes Meditation Practice
May 22, 2017 • 53 min
‘This is a magnificent book [The Buddha Walks Into the Office] that just happens to be truly fun to read. Accessible, urgent, and life-changing.’ - Seth Godin Lodro Rinzler is a practitioner and teacher in the Shambhala Buddhist lineage, the…
(Bonus! Practice Episode) Contemplating the Universe
May 19, 2017 • 4 min
This bonus practice episode invites you to ground your being in contemplating the universe. This practice is from Nancy Ellen Abram’s book, A God That Could Be Real (pp. 89 - 90)
031: Becoming Esteemed Ancestors with a Cosmic Vision - Nancy Ellen Abrams (author of A God That Could Be Real)
May 16, 2017 • 62 min
‘You will find that your beliefs are enriched by reading Abrams’s [A God That Could Be Real]. I am thrilled that we have the creativity and originality that is exhibited in this book, and I recommend it highly to all, religious or secular,…
030: David Michie: Meditate to Know Thyself (Author of The Dalai Lama’s Cat and Hurry Up and Meditate)
May 8, 2017 • 35 min
‘You get the sense that this guy practices what he preaches. There’s a confidence and peace that inspires.’ - Modern Sage Magazine David Michie is a presenter, mindful safari guide and author, best known for his novel series The Dalai…
029: Scott Hartley: The Future Needs Philosophers (Author of The Fuzzy and the Techie: Why The Liberal Arts will Rule the Digital World)
Apr 25, 2017 • 57 min
Scott Hartley, The Fuzzy and the Techie, stoicism, seneca, ryan holiday, contemplify, contemplation, contemplative
028: Washing Dishes with Thich Nhat Hahn and Hitchhiking to Thomas Merton: Jim Forest on a Life Worthy of Such Friendships
Apr 3, 2017 • 50 min
“Henry David Thoreau, by no means the most conventional man of his time, lamented on his death bed, “What demon possessed me that I behaved so well.” He would have taken comfort in Holy Fools. They remind us of a deeper sanity that is sometimes…
027: Art is Resonance: The Ambient Internal Landscape of Musician and Ecopsychologist Russell James Pyle
Mar 25, 2017 • 68 min
Russell James Pyle (russelljamespyle.com) is a national touring Musician and Ecopsychologist based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Russell is one of a kind—an ambient folk troubadour, Buddhist, ecopsychologist, flyfisherman, avid hiker, comic book…
026: In Rhythm with Life: Alana Levandoski on Being a Contemplative Artisan and Collaborating with James Finley
Mar 17, 2017 • 47 min
“The thing about Alana [Levandoski] is that she’s gifted. She’s not just gifted as a musician, which she is, but she’s gifted as a lyricist…she teased these words, kind of like mantras, highly evocative mantras. She strung them together in a…
025: The Priest of the Woods and the Fullness of the Earth with Stephen Blackmer
Mar 7, 2017 • 52 min
Stephen Blackmer is founding executive director of Kairos Earth and chaplain of Church of the Woods. Steve comes to this with 30 years of conservation experience, having founded and built conservation organizations including the Five Rivers…
024: The Contemplative Hint: Seeking to Say the Unsayable within Christianity with Rev. Dr. Peter Traben Haas
Mar 1, 2017 • 46 min
�Rev. Dr. Peter Traben Haas is the author of several books, including Centering Prayers: A One Year Daily Companion for Going Deeper into the Love of God. Peter is steeped in the Christian contemplative tradition, passionate about bringing the…
023: The Generous Cadence of the Singer of Solitude: Kevin Dann on Henry David Thoreau (Author of Expect Great Things: The Life and Search of Henry David Thoreau)
Feb 20, 2017 • 59 min
“Though I do not believe that a plant will spring up where no seed has been, I have great faith in a seed. Convince me that you have a seed there, and I am prepared to expect wonders.” - Henry David Thoreau Kevin Dann is a historian, naturalist,…
022: A Clear Life - Charlie Parr on Harlan Hubbard’s Payne Hollow: Life on the Fringe of Society
Feb 12, 2017 • 10 min
“[Charlie] Parr may have been born during the Nixon era, but you can taste the grit of the Dust Bowl in his music.”- Dusted Magazine In this episode, Charlie shares a reflection on Harlan and Anna Hubbard as they sought a simple life on…
021: Minimalist Parenting and Cultivating a Family Dynamic with Christine Koh
Feb 2, 2017 • 51 min
Christine Koh is a music and brain scientist turned multimedia creative via channels as a speaker, writer, designer and consultant. She spent a decade in academia, during which time she was awarded prestigious fellowships from the National Institutes…
020: A Syllabus for Newfound Seriousness with Christy Wampole
Jan 28, 2017 • 36 min
Christy Wampole is an assistant professor in the department of French and Italian at Princeton, and the author of “Rootedness: The Ramifications of a Metaphor” and “The Other Serious: Essays for the New American Generation.” She has also…
019: Voicemail - Seeing the World Through a Lens of Awe: Brie Stoner on Pablo Neruda
Jan 19, 2017 • 25 min
“I have a crazy, crazy love of things.” - Pablo Neruda Brie Stoner is a student, musician, and writer at becomingultrahuman.com. Besides contributing to the Center for Spiritual Resources and Contemplative Wisdom blogs, she contributed to the book…
018: The Past Has Arms: Risking Relationship with Ourselves So We Can Grow Up with James Hollis, PhD
Jan 2, 2017 • 56 min
“We would rather be ruined than changed We would rather die in our dread Than climb the cross of the moment And let our illusions die.” - W.H. Auden Interview with James Hollis, Ph.D. on the key elements of a reflective life.
017: Voicemails - Alison Kirkpatrick on The Conscious Parent / Mark Longhurst on The Brothers Karamazov
Dec 19, 2016 • 39 min
Alison (Ali) Kirkpatrick is a writer, speaker and educator and you might say professional inspirer of goodness. You can find her blog #SignsOfLove at alisonkirkpatrick.com. Mark Longhurst is a pastor and a curator of the collaborative contemplative…
016: The Other is Us: Connecting to Knowledge, Wisdom and One Another with Barbara A. Holmes
Dec 2, 2016 • 57 min
Barbara Holmes served as president of United Theological Seminary of the Twin Cities, as well as professor of ethics and African American religious studies. She was ordained in the Latter Rain Apostolic Holiness Church in Dallas, Texas, and has…
015: Raghu Markus on How John Coltrane, Ram Dass and a Healthy Dose of Self-Inquiry Can Transform Your Life
Nov 20, 2016 • 40 min
Raghu Markus is currently the Executive Director of the Love Serve Remember Foundation and has been an associate producer for on-line and television events for Ram Dass and Oprah Winfrey as well as Eckhart Tolle. Raghu is the host of Mindrolling, a…
014: The Courage to Be Present: Moving the World Towards Compassion with Marianne Elliot (Activist, Author, Yoga Teacher, Ultramarathon Runner)
Nov 12, 2016 • 48 min
“Marianne is one of the best teachers I’ve experienced and I’ve been a teacher for many years.” - Brene Brown Marianne Elliot is a human rights advocate and a writer. She served in the United Nations mission in Afghanistan with a focus on…
013: Filmmaker and Cultural Anthropologist Jenny Phillips on the Wisdom Found Behind (and Beyond) Prison Bars
Nov 1, 2016 • 54 min
“Jenny Phillips is a cultural anthropologist, filmmaker, writer and psychiatric nurse. She has a psychotherapy practice in Concord, MA, specializing in crisis intervention, family and marriage therapy, behavioral medicine, and mindfulness training….
012: Your Teacher’s Teacher: Mirka Knaster on the Dharma, Quirks and Stories of Munindra (Teacher of Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, Jack Kornfield, Kamala Masters and many more)
Oct 20, 2016 • 69 min
“Munindra was one of the most important teachers for Westerners in the establishment of Vipassana and mindfulness meditation.” - Jack Kornfield “Mirka Knaster is the author of Living This Life Fully: Stories and Teachings of Munindra, a book…
011: Trailblazing in Academia, David Germano on the Contemplative Sciences
Oct 11, 2016 • 57 min
David Germano is a man who holds many posts at the University of Virginia. Germano’s astute and focused work related to the integration of contemplation into all facets of life makes him an easy conversation partner on Contemplify. His deep…
010: Radical Dharma with Lama Rod Owens: A Fresh Approach to Enlightenment and Social Change
Oct 1, 2016 • 73 min
Lama Rod Owens (@lamarod1) holds the space for vulnerable conversation to unfold. I was going to write a spot-on bio, but the one posted on his website mirrors my experience and understanding of him: “Considered one of the leaders of the next…
009: Spiritual Wanderings: The Natural Curiosity of T.D. Mischke
Sep 20, 2016 • 71 min
T.D. Mischke (@TommyMischke) is a radioman that has fled the studio for the open road and the stories waiting to be told via his latest project, The Mischke Roadshow. My conversational history with Mischke dates back to 1996 when I first rang his…
008: Sit in Your Shack, and Your Shack Will Teach You Everything, Dialogues with Andrew Gingerich
Sep 10, 2016 • 67 min
Andrew Gingerich embraces a prophetic, contemplative lifestyle. Of course he would object to this description, because his pursuit is internally driven and extrinsic validation does not go far with him. At times he speaks like a modern-day Desert…
007: Growing Basil and the Art of Eavesdropping, Dar Williams on Building Community through Positive Proximity
Sep 2, 2016 • 66 min
Dar Williams (@DarWilliamsTour), ”one of America’s very best singer-songwriters.” (The New Yorker), is thoughtful and charming as she tells stories about her local community, but don’t let her laid back delivery fool you, she is passionate…
006: Creating Empty Spaces, Toinette Lippe on the Mindful Art of Being
Aug 20, 2016 • 47 min
“Each day is valuable…Do not compare it with a dragon’s bright pearl. A dragon’s pearl may be found. But this one day out of a hundred years cannot be retrieved once it is lost.” - Zen Master Dogen This quote easily tripped off the lips of…
005: The Life and Art of Thomas Merton: Morgan Atkinson on Crafting the Contemplative Documentary
Aug 10, 2016 • 60 min
Morgan Atkinson has documented the life of Thomas Merton over two films. The poetic contemplative Thomas Merton lived an ever expanding and continual openness to God’s love and Atkinson beautifully captures this on film. In this episode discover…
004 Simone Weil: Attention, the Agent of Love with Eric O. Springsted
Jul 30, 2016 • 55 min
Eric O. Springsted spends some time with Contemplify to explore the life and attention of Simone Weil. The French philosopher, mystic and activist dared to imagine an authentic life based on the attention and practice of…
003: Democracy of the Cosmos: John Muir’s Prophetic and Moral vision | A Conversation with Donald Worster (Author, Professor)
Jul 21, 2016 • 47 min
Donald Worster ( @TheWorster1979 ) connects with Contemplify to traverse the life and passion of John Muir. The American icon who combined intelligence and curiosity with a grounded love for the wilderness. Muir held a natural contemplative bent that…
002: Julian of Norwich: Loving Without Annihilating Difference with Amy Frykholm
Jul 21, 2016 • 62 min
Amy Frykholm (@AmyFrykholm) joins Contemplify in conversation on visionary 13th century contemplative and mystic Julian of Norwich. Bring some mead to the table because we cover a lot of ground here; the near death experience of Julian that…
001: Drinking Beer with Thomas Merton to Kindle the Examined Life
Jul 19, 2016 • 1 min
This episode introduces the premise and possibilities of the Contemplify podcast. Interviews with contemplative scholars, creatives and practitioners in tow for those interested in the contemplative streams of the Buddha, Stoic philosophers (Marcus…