Overtime

Overtime

dribbble.com/overtime
Overtime, Dribbble’s weekly podcast, explores the most interesting design news and gives you the tips you need to create your best work. No need to scroll copious news sites and design Twitter—host Meg Lewis and friends are primed to inform, entertain, and inspire you each week. Consider Overtime your audio lifeline to the design community, packaged in a perfectly punchy Shot. Subscribe and listen every Wednesday to stay ahead of the game.


Here Come the ⌘‑C Cats
Jul 1 • 34 min
This week on Overtime, we break down a new, unconventional design trend for political campaigns that everybody wanting to do the same thing. Plus, Meg tries to uncover the mysterious 👁️️👄👁️ , and 3D artist Noah Camp stops by to chat about overcoming…
Design The New Normal
Jun 24 • 26 min
This week on Overtime, we talk about assessing our design thinking to stop perpetuating heteronormativity! Plus, a new digital product that is reinventing the way we use email. Last but not least, the organizers of “Where are the Black Designers” Mitzi…
Is Comic Sans Really That Bad?
Jun 17 • 21 min
This week on Overtime, we unpack what it means to decolonize our design thinking and question the rules we’ve been taught. Plus, brands design apologies that all look… the same? Finally, Meg talks about how to stop lifting up the same people over and over…
Bonk Against The Boundaries
May 27 • 31 min
This week on Overtime, we discuss whether remote work is the new normal after more companies announce permanent work-from-home policies. Then, Meg helps us embrace all the ways we’ve changed as a result of the ongoing pandemic. Last but not least, Meg…
Toucan Play At This (Design) Game
May 20 • 28 min
This week on Overtime, Froot Loops gives our old buddy Toucan Sam an unexpected redesign, and people have quite the reaction to it. Plus, more creatives make and sell face masks to earn extra income while helping first responders on the front lines.…
Side-Benefits of Side-Projects
May 13 • 33 min
This week on Overtime, Meg recommends some virtual museum tours worth checking out, and gives you a rundown of how unemployment and PPP loans work as a self-employed creative right now. Plus, Charli Prangley and Femke van Schoonhoven stop by to talk about…
Shut Up And Zoom
May 6 • 30 min
This week on Overtime, Meg learns that popping into a Zoom room full of silent people is a thing that actually isn’t awkward, artists get creative with toilet paper to raise money for COVID-19 relief, and Eric Friedensohn joins to talk about making murals…
Make Friends With Strangers
Apr 29 • 29 min
This week on Overtime, Meg and The Futur’s Matthew Encina discuss a new, self-destructing website, how to uncover the unique POV you have to offer the world, and tips for building more meaningful connections with people, both on and offline.
Is Lo-Fi The New Hi-Fi?
Apr 22 • 25 min
This week on Overtime, we explore what design trends might look like once the pandemic is over, how to make videos that reach your audience on Instagram, and why paying attention and documenting your feelings during this time in history might just pay off…
Making Lemonade Out Of Grapefruits
Apr 15 • 29 min
This week on Overtime, a new contest has designers creating the ugliest, worst logos you can imagine, and designers grab their pitchforks over a renowned publication’s controversial Tweet. Plus, Meg chats with lettering artist and illustrator…
Make What Ya Wanna Make
Apr 8 • 26 min
This week on Overtime, designers use their skills to help those affected by COVID-19, while some corporations “attempt” to exemplify social distancing through new branding efforts. Plus, tactile illustrator Alicja Colon joins Meg to chat about taking…
We’re All Human Mullets
Apr 1 • 25 min
This week on Overtime, Meg weighs in on the latest obsession with Animal Crossing and how it’s helping designers cope, Nissan’s new logo, and she responds to a listener voicemail! Plus, designer Mick Champayne joins the conversation to talk about…
The Show Must Go On
Mar 25 • 27 min
This week on Overtime, we’re focusing on moments of light in all of the darkness of what’s going on. Meg tells us about an upcoming design event that’s actually happening, and how she plans to continue her freelance career while also supporting small…
Let’s Be Alone Together
Mar 18 • 28 min
Meg shares advice for working from home amidst the COVID-19 outbreak along with mental health tips to keep you sane. Plus, special guest Erik Westra joins us to talk about managing IRL events to keep the public safe and healthy.
Personal Style, Personal Six‑Pack
Mar 11 • 30 min
Illustrator Alice Lee joins Meg to co-host this week’s episode of Overtime! Meg and Alice discuss a more eco-friendly Instagram interface, BMW’s new logo redesign, and how to let your inner style loose.
PortfoliNO? PortfoliYES!
Mar 4 • 21 min
In this episode, Meg shares tips for boosting your online presence as a designer and how to create a portfolio that reflects your unique personality. Plus, she digs into the latest design news stories like whether putting IKEA furniture in a museum is…
If Someone Else Likes It, That’s a Bonus
Feb 26 • 28 min
Dribbble’s Co-Founder Dan Cederholm joins us on this episode of Overtime! Meg and Dan discuss the role of designers today, face masks that are compatible with Face ID, self-publishing, and working on your own.
Butt What Can You Do?
Feb 19 • 26 min
You’re listening to Overtime! In this episode, host Meg Lewis discusses Sears’ new rebrand, House Industries’ new hand-lettering manual, and the trailer for Wes Anderson’s new movie. Plus, Meg chats with Fanny Luor and Sean Suchara about designing for…
Put A Label On It (Or Don’t)
Feb 12 • 26 min
Meg and today’s co-host Rogie King talk about a new design tool, Millennial rosy retrospection, and Amazon Dating. Plus, they dive into whether design titles and labels are harmful or helpful.
Speaking of Speaking…
Feb 5 • 24 min
This week on Overtime, we talk all things design events and conferences—which ones to attend, gender representation on stage, and tips for giving a good talk and sending speaking proposals. Plus, we get a bonus visit from special typography correspondent…
WTF Aaron Carter
Jan 29 • 28 min
Meg banters with hand lettering artist extraordinaire Lauren Hom about jerks who steal work, misty movie posters, and the joy of passion projects. Plus, a special sit-down with Ryan Scott Tandy, Director of Product Design at Instacart.
About That Toilet Tweet
Jan 22 • 21 min
In today’s episode, host Meg Lewis talks about the new Fisher-Price rebrand, Netflix-induced sleep loss, and why you should always show up as yourself.
New Host Meg Lewis Talks 2020 Goals & List Making
Jan 15 • 26 min
Welcome to the new Overtime! In this episode, host Meg Lewis and today’s co-host Andy J. Pizza chat about design trends, foam pits, productivity, and the value of New Year’s resolutions.
Overtime Is Back! Meet Our New Host Meg Lewis!
Jan 9 • 0 min
Overtime is back on January 15, with our new host, Meg Lewis. Since we know waiting can be hard, enjoy this sneak peek into our relaunched design podcast. Subscribe and catch new episodes every Wednesday!
Figma’s Dylan Field on building design tools that empower collaboration
Jul 2, 2019 • 41 min
Dribbble’s very own Director of Design Noah Stokes chats with Figma co-founder Dylan Field on all things design process and collaboration. Learn more about Figma’s mission to give everyone—including non-traditional designers—the power to communicate and…
Design at Google: An inside look with Creative Director Christopher Morabito
Jun 19, 2019 • 34 min
Creative Director at Google Christopher Morabito shares insight on what goes into working on Google’s oldest and newest products, Search and Assistant. We dig into the weight of designing products used by billions of people around the world, and Chris…
Owltastic’s Meagan Fisher on adapting to the modern landscape of web design
Apr 10, 2019 • 60 min
Owltastic’s Meagan Fisher joins us on this episode of Overtime to share her insights on all things web design and how the field has evolved over years. Meagan shares her thoughts on what it means to be a web designer now vs. a decade ago and also tells us…
Maggie Enterrios on finding her authentic voice as an illustrator
Mar 26, 2019 • 38 min
On this episode of Overtime, we dive into the intricate world of Maggie Enterrios’ beautiful illustration work. Maggie shares how she found her authentic voice as an illustrator after going into school for photography, and how her first iPad Pro was a…
Reshaping the world one logo at a time with identity design legend Mackey Saturday
Mar 12, 2019 • 50 min
What makes a logo stand the test of time? The legendary identity designer Mackey Saturday joins us on this episode of Overtime to chat all things brand identity. Mackey shares his experience redesigning the new Instagram script logo and working with…
Entrepreneur and prankster Johnny Cupcakes on what it takes to build and sustain a booming personal brand
Feb 26, 2019 • 78 min
Self-made entrepreneur and prankster, Johnny Earle, joins us on Overtime to chat about the making of the widely popular Johnny Cupcakes brand. Johnny takes us way back and explains how it all got started—from what inspired him to become an entrepreneur at…
Revision Path’s Maurice Cherry on creating opportunities and shining a light on others
Feb 12, 2019 • 43 min
Designer, podcaster, and pioneering digital creator, Maurice Cherry, joins us on Overtime. In this episode, Maurice shares what he’s up to at Glitch as the Head of Media and the history behind how Revision Path became a podcast and how it’s grown and…
Hop, skip, and a jump into freelance with Lauren Hom
Jan 29, 2019 • 53 min
Passion project aficionado and hand lettering artist, Lauren Hom, joins us on Overtime to chat about the success she’s found by doing the work she loves. We discuss a few of her popular projects including Flour Crowns, Will Letter for Lunch, and Daily…
50 episodes down and the lessons we’ve learned along the way
Jan 15, 2019 • 45 min
This is a special episode for a few reasons—it’s our 50th episode and it kicks off season four of Overtime! We had so many incredible people on the show last year that we’re looking back at 2018 and sharing some of our favorite clips. We were surprised to…
RetroSupply’s Dustin Lee shares the secrets to his entrepreneurial success
Dec 13, 2018 • 42 min
On Overtime, designer and entrepreneur, Dustin Lee shares, how he built his wildly successful resource marketplace for designers—RetroSupply Co. In this episode, Dustin shares the numbers and why they’re important, where his inspiration for creating…
Lyft’s VP of Design Katie Dill on helping others unlock their potential
Nov 27, 2018 • 46 min
Lyft’s VP of Design, Katie Dill, joins us on Overtime to talk about her path as a designer, why she loves being a design manager, and learning to speak a new language when it comes to recognizing designers on your team. We also chat about Lyft’s vision…
Finding Freedom in Personal Work with Mary Kate McDevitt
Nov 13, 2018 • 53 min
On Overtime, illustrator and letterer Mary Kate McDevitt shares her path to becoming a freelance artist. After attending Tyler School of Art and moving to Portland, Mary Kate found her voice by setting goals, authoring books, and teaching classes. Mary…
From skeuomorphic design to building a global agency with Clay’s Anton Zykin and Dmitry Tsozik
Oct 23, 2018 • 41 min
On Overtime, we dive into a little Dribbble history with Clay’s Anton Zykin and Dmitry Tsozik. If you were on Dribbble in the early days, you may remember the incredible skeuomorphic icons made by SoftFacade. In this episode, we hear how Anton and Dmitry…
Creative Coding: Programming Visuals with Joshua Davis
Oct 9, 2018 • 66 min
Legendary designer, Joshua Davis, joins us to talk about how he utilizes programming to create unique visual landscapes. A Flash pioneer for over a decade, Joshua shares his journey with open source software and creative coding that informs his incredible…
Designing for Everyone, Everywhere with Luke Wroblewski
Sep 26, 2018 • 55 min
Our latest Overtime guest, Luke Wroblewski, is known best for humanizing technology. He’s the author of several web design books, has founded several start-ups that were later acquired, and he’s now the Product Director at Google. In this episode, Dan and…
Midwest Illustrator Tad Carpenter On Valuing Playfulness In Design
Sep 11, 2018 • 57 min
Designer and illustrator Tad Carpenter shares what he loves about the Kansas City and the Midwest design communities, what it’s like to grow up with a creative father who worked at Hallmark and how that’s influenced his own career, and how he got started…
Rob Generette III on Design Education, Getting Inspired by Sports, and What’s Next After Retiring from Teaching
Aug 28, 2018 • 63 min
Illustrator and art educator, Rob Generette III (aka Robzilla) is on Overtime this week. In this episode, Rob shares what he’s learned from teaching the art and photography for the last 20 years and what he learned from his own design education. He also…
Growing Businesses and Communities Through Trust With Tina Roth Eisenberg
Aug 14, 2018 • 50 min
Episode 41 features Swissmiss, AKA Tina Roth Eisenberg. Tina is quite a powerhouse and is a super creative person who loves taking side projects and turning them into real companies that make a big impact in the design world. In the episode, Dan and Tina…
Balancing Work and Life on the Fly with Alana Louise
Jul 24, 2018 • 47 min
Episode 40 features Alana Louise, an independent designer living in Austin, TX. She’s worked with incredible companies like Yeti, United by Blue, Austin Beerworks, and others. When Alana Louise is not designing, she’s on the river fly fishing. In this…
Tim Allen on Empowering Users with Inclusive Design
Jul 10, 2018 • 44 min
Episode 39 features Tim Allen, Partner at Microsoft. Before joining Microsoft, Tim worked with a number of incredible companies including Adobe, RGA, Nike, Amazon, and others. He now leads Microsoft’s Fluent Design System and Inclusive Design teams. Tim…
On Building a Global Design Agency with Haraldur Thorleifsson
Jun 27, 2018 • 42 min
Our guest on episode 38 is Haraldur Thorleifsson, founder and CEO of Ueno—a global design agency that works with incredible clients like Google, Fitbit, Dropbox, Slack, ESPN, and more. In this episode, Dan and Halli chat about the role Dribbble played in…
Live at Hang Time with Sasha Barr, Dina Rodriguez, and Victor Melendez
Jun 12, 2018 • 50 min
Today we’re bringing you a very special episode of Overtime. Episode 37 was recorded at Hang Time Seattle in front of our live audience. Dan Cederholm shared the stage with three Pacific Northwest creatives: Sasha Barr, Dina Rodriguez, and Victor…
An Inside Look at Design Legend Paula Scher’s Influential Career
May 22, 2018 • 49 min
Episode 36 of Overtime features one of the most influential graphic designers in the world—Paula Scher. In this episode, Dan and Paula discuss her early work at CBS Records, the joy of typographic expression, and creating opportunities for yourself. They…
Making Design a Family Affair with Josh and Katie Emrich
May 8, 2018 • 46 min
Episode 35 features Josh and Katie Emrich of Emrich Office. This husband and wife team live in Indianapolis and are running an incredible design studio while raising four kids. They do amazing identity branding work for clients like Bottle Logic,…
Never Stop Learning and Always Start Teaching with Pablo Stanley
Apr 24, 2018 • 57 min
Episode 34 features Pablo Stanley—lead designer and co-founder of Carbon Health, mentor at Sketch Together, host of the Diseño Cha Cha Cha podcast, and writer of The Design Team. In this episode, Dan and Pablo talk about how to be a good team member, the…
Adding Value to Our Community, Remote Culture, and What’s Next for Dribbble with CEO Zack Onisko
Apr 10, 2018 • 48 min
Episode 33 features our very own Zack Onisko—Dribbble’s CEO. Before taking the helm at Dribbble, Zack began his career nearly 20 years ago as a web designer before shifting into business and executive roles at Autodesk, Creative Market, Hired.com,…
Creating Cosmic Connections Through Design with Lauren Dickens
Mar 27, 2018 • 50 min
Episode 32 features Lauren Dickens—an amazingly creative designer who specializes in brand identity and art direction. She’s has worked with some incredible clients including Target, Facebook, SXSW, and The Line Hotel. Lauren lives in Austin, Texas and…
Growing and Supporting the Design Community with Gerren Lamson
Mar 13, 2018 • 45 min
Gerren Lamson is an Austin-based designer and the co-owner and Chief Design Officer at Creative Market. In this episode, we explore how Gerren got started in design, the value in teaching yourself new skills, the differences in working agency vs. product,…
Great Projects Come from Passion and Exploration with Jim Coudal
Feb 27, 2018 • 54 min
We’re super excited to have Jim Coudal on Overtime. Jim is the founder of Coudal Partners, a design and interactive studio in Chicago. So many amazing projects have sprung out of Coudal Partners including The Deck Network, Layer Tennis, and Field Notes.…
Rejection, Perseverance, and Design Matters with Debbie Millman
Feb 13, 2018 • 58 min
Debbie Millman has worked with some of the world’s biggest brands including Burger King, Hershey’s, Haagen-Dazs, Twizzlers—just to name a few. She’s written six books, is a frequent keynote speaker on design and branding, and she hosts the first and…
Being a Professional Encourager with Andy J Pizza from the Creative Pep Talk Podcast
Jan 23, 2018 • 65 min
Season 3 of Overtime is here! Our first guest is Andy J. (Pizza) Miller. Andy is the creator of the podcast and book Creative Pep Talk. He also has a successful illustration career and has created illustrations for clients like Nickelodeon, Google,…
Ryan Hamrick
Dec 12, 2017 • 53 min
It’s our final episode of Overtime, season 2! We’ll be back in 2018 but before then, we’d love to hear from you. If you’re an avid Overtime listener, please take a [short survey](https://dribbble-feedback.typeform.com/to/d7fSG2) to let us know what you…
Khoi Vinh
Nov 28, 2017 • 49 min
In episode 26, we chat with Khoi Vinh, Principal Designer at Adobe, co-founder of Mixel and Kidpost, and former Design Director of New York Times Online. We discuss Khoi’s role at Adobe, the recent launch of Adobe XD, the pros and cons of working for big…
Vlad Magdalin
Nov 14, 2017 • 56 min
In this episode, we talk to Vlad Magdalin about the origin of Webflow, it’s unique position in the market of web design tools, the current state of web design tooling, why democratization of web design is a good thing, and more.
Ethan Marcotte
Oct 24, 2017 • 29 min
We’ve got a special episode for you this week. In this episode, you’ll hear a conversation with Dan Cederholm and Ethan Marcotte. It was recorded at the Hang Time Boston after-party. You may hear a bit of bar noise, but you’ll also hear some great…
Meg Lewis
Oct 12, 2017 • 44 min
Meg Lewis is a designer and founder of Ghostly Ferns—a family of freelancer BFFs. She also founded Fool Proof—a coworking space to support creativity in Minnesota. She’s also a really nice person. In this episode, Meg tells us about her recent move to…
Louie Mantia
Sep 26, 2017 • 52 min
In episode 22, Dan chats with icon designer Louie Mantia. Louie is a co-founder of Parakeet—a small design studio with a concentration on icons, logos, illustrations, and emoji. In this episode, Dan and Louie chat about getting inspired by Disney,…
Lydia Nichols
Sep 12, 2017 • 53 min
In episode 21, Dan chats with Lydia Nichols, an illustrator and designer who loves anthropomorphizing animals. She’s done amazing work for companies like Mailchimp, Google, the New York Times, and more. In this episode, Lydia shares why she fell in love…
Alice Lee
Aug 22, 2017 • 45 min
In episode 20, Dan chats with Alice Lee, an independent San Francisco-based illustrator and designer who loves drawing and telling clever stories. She’s also part of a studio of artists known as the 1099 Group. Before going independent, she was the second…
Ryan Putnam
Aug 8, 2017 • 49 min
In episode 19, Dan chats with Ryan Putnam. Dan and Ryan chat about being creative. Ryan is always looking for different ways to make stuff that’s functional but beautiful at the same time. They also discuss Riso printing, how Ryan got into pottery,…
Jared Erondu
Jul 25, 2017 • 51 min
In episode 18, Dan chats with Jared Erondu. Jared is the head of design at Lattice and he’s also building a Q&A platform for designers called Playbook. Additionally, he’s the co-host of High Resolution, a video series on design. In this episode we dig…
Jon Contino
Jul 11, 2017 • 49 min
Our guest this week is Jon Contino. Jon is a very talented branding consultant, creative director and a monster of a design force. In this episode, we discuss Jon’s process and his background, his new custom lettering workshop, the challenges of balancing…
Danielle Evans
Jun 27, 2017 • 59 min
In our 16th Overtime episode, Dan chats with Danielle Evans—a visual artist, letterer, and designer from Columbus, Ohio. In this episode, Danielle recounts starting a design career during the recession and how she got the idea for food typography. Dan and…
Rogie King
Jun 13, 2017 • 51 min
Our guest on Overtime episode 15 is Rogie King. Rogie is a talented illustrator, designer, and developer and he’s been a long time Dribbble member. Recently he’s worked on NeonMob and Super Team Deluxe. In this episode, we talk about how Rogie got into…
Aaron Draplin
May 23, 2017 • 49 min
Our guest this week is Aaron Draplin of [Draplin Design Co](http://draplin.com). He’s usually based in Portland, Oregon, but he’s currently on the road promoting his new book, [Pretty Much Everything](http://amzn.to/2rr0G7c). In this episode, we chat…
Amy and Jennifer Hood
May 9, 2017 • 49 min
Our guests for lucky episode 13 are [Amy](https://dribbble.com/amy_hoodlum) and [Jennifer Hood](https://dribbble.com/jenhood) of [Hoodzpah Design Co.](http://hoodzpahdesign.com/), a boutique branding firm specializing in bold, unapologetic design across…
Linda Eliasen
Apr 25, 2017 • 40 min
In our latest Overtime episode, Dan chats with Linda Eliasen—a designer, illustrator, art director, and all-around creative. Linda currently freelances in NYC, but before that, she worked at Ueno, Dropbox, Mailchimp, and Squarespace. In this episode, she…
Kelli Anderson
Apr 11, 2017 • 42 min
In episode 11 of Overtime, Dan chats with [Kelli Anderson](https://dribbble.com/kellianderson)—a tinkerer, designer, artist, printmaker, and all-around creative force in the design world. She’s created some amazing projects including a paper record player…
Fraser Davidson
Mar 28, 2017 • 46 min
In episode 10 of Overtime, Dan chats with Fraser Davidson—an award-winning motion graphic designer and animator and one of the founding members of Cub Studio. Cub Studio has worked with big name clients like ESPN, the NFL, BBC, and more. Fraser and Dan…
JP Boneyard
Mar 14, 2017 • 42 min
In our Overtime 9th episode, Dan chats with JP Boneyard, Creative Director of The Fifty-Nine Parks Print Series and producer of the National Poster Retrospecticus. JP shares what it’s like to work with other designers, how he got into curating and hosting…
Meg Robichaud
Feb 22, 2017 • 33 min
Meg is currently the Illustration Lead at Shopify, but she also has a ton of experience in freelance illustration. In this episode, we discuss how she manages illustration work at a large company, whether or not you should do unpaid work for friends, and…
Gleb Kuznetsov
Nov 30, 2016 • 42 min
Our guest this week is Gleb Kuznetsov. Gleb is the Design Director at Fantasy, where he designs futuristic user interfaces and jaw-dropping animations. In this episode, we talk about the struggles he overcame while learning design and development in…
Team Dribbble’s Adam Darowski
Nov 8, 2016 • 21 min
In this bonus episode, Dan sits down to chat with Dribbble’s front-end developer and product designer, Adam Darowski.
Team Dribbble’s Alison Harshbarger
Oct 19, 2016 • 18 min
In this Overtime bonus episode, Dan sits down for a quick chat with Dribbble’s very own Alison Harshbarger. She’s Dribbble’s community manager, which means she helps community members with support, makes sure Dribbble Meetup organizers have the resources…
Bill Kenney
Sep 28, 2016 • 76 min
Our guest this week is Bill Kenney. Bill is the creative director and co-founder of Focus Lab, a strategic, creative studio based out of Savannah, Georgia. In this episode, Bill shares the story of how he discover his love for design and how Focus Lab got…
Allison House
Jul 11, 2016 • 51 min
Allison House is an independent designer and visual artist who worked with tech startups like Dropbox, Codecademy and Treehouse before diving into 3D illustration and design. In this episode, she shares how she made the transition to 3D, how she’s working…
Bethany Heck
May 19, 2016 • 52 min
This week, [Dan](https://dribbble.com/simplebits) is joined by [Bethany Heck](https://dribbble.com/bethanyheck). Bethany is the Creative Lead for the Microsoft Power BI team, and also runs [Eephus League](http://eephusleague.com), where she creates…
Justin Mezzell
Mar 31, 2016 • 45 min
In this interview, Dan talks with illustrator and designer Justin Mezzell. Dan and Justin discuss how he got started in design, the importance of asking for help, and prioritizing and choosing what you spend time on. Justin shares his design tools of…
Laura Bohill
Feb 17, 2016 • 37 min
In this interview, Dan speaks with freelance illustrator, icon artist, branding specialist, letterer, and all around cool person, Laura Bohill. Laura and Dan chat about freelancing, accents, Ghostly Ferns, working with folks you love, why you don’t have…
Ian Brignell
Dec 15, 2015 • 42 min
Overtime is Dribbble’s audio companion and our first foray into the world of audio. In this episode, Dan Cederholm talks with letter, logo, and font designer, Ian Brignell. Ian’s impressive client list includes Budweiser, Smirnoff, Harvard, Dove,…